Monday, June 26, 2006

Chris Pronger & Barret Jackman

Barely played a shift together during Jackman's terrific rookie campaign, and barely any the next season either. Though they might have if both had ever been healthy at the same time.

I just had to say that. The home team love for Pronger caused some on the internet to create the story that Pronger "made Jackman look good!" back then. It was repeated so often that even astute hockey board and blog posters have started claiming it as fact. And that's just too much.

Jackman played with Al MacInnis for almost the entirety of that campaign. In fact Al was the unofficial "Jackman for rookie of the year" lobbyist, he loved the kid. And MacInnis is one of the best defenceman to ever play the game, I'm sure it helped Barret a bunch to be paired with him during his debut season in 02/03.

But the authoritative voice is the one that supports it's arguments with facts, so:

At 5on5 in 02/03:

Jackman: EV+59, EV-47

Jackman with MacInnis: EV+51, EV-38

Pronger: 5 games played


Anonymous momentai said...

Chalk me up to one of the people that mentioned that. I stand corrected. Do you know the EV +/- for Jackman this season? I would imagine that he got the tough matchups in St. Louis.

Looking at some numbers would do wonders in changing my opinion of him as a player.

Another note: Al MacInnis was always my favourite player to watch on St. Louis. I was disappointed to see him go out in the playoffs with St. Louis when Vancouver stormed back to win the series.

6/27/2006 8:43 am  
Blogger Steven said...

Thanks for clearing that up Vic.

Still... playing with Al MacInnis is bound to help you a ton. I don't know as much as play with Chris Pronger now but its comparable. There is a point to be made to see if Jackman could stand on his own as a good EV +/-.

Not sure of the numbers myself but I'd love to know as well.
Jackman does look a bit suspect without MacInnis though doesn't he?

6/27/2006 10:44 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Jackman was EV+32, EV-40 this year. Doesn't look like particularly tough icetime. And once again he missed quite a few games with injury.

STL's D corps doesn't look all that bad on paper, but with spotty goaltending and a dearth of good forwards on that squad ... it's tough to put up decent numbers for those guys.

Personally I'd like to not even think about a potential trade with STL. I'm hoping for a forward in return.

Patrice Bergeron looks like a good bet:
EV+64, EV-53 and a whopping 41 icetime difficulty by the simple events metric. That's Brad Richards type numbers and he's still just a kid. Granted may have been a fluky year, but the enormous increase in opposition quality didn't hurt him all that much. How the hell did this guy so far in the draft?

As a point of reference, Pronger was EV+46, EV-46 and 43 difficulty. Which is pretty damn good as well. Toughest minutes on the team JUST edging out Gator and Horcoff.

There are a lot of good forwards out there, let's hope Lowe snags one. Mark Bell comes to mind as well ... tougher minutes even than Lapointe on that team last season, and respectable numbers to go with that. (Spacek looks to have had an easy ride before coming over to the Oil)

BTW: For a youngster Steen played pretty tough minutes for the Leafs (30) and was EV+/- of -5 on the season, granted getting their asses handed to them a bunch of times by Ottawa hurt everyone's 5on5 numbers there, and boosted everyones opposition quality numbers.

Aki Berg continued to play brutal minutes (53) even ahead of Ohlund (48) this year, and behind only Hatcher (54) and some guy in PHX named Zbynek Michalek that put up terrific numbers and a staggering 74 opposition rating. Unreal, probably just a coincidence, I dunno. Some mad shit happened in the desert last hockey season.

McCabe got a slightly easier ride this year (31) compared to years previous, which is probably how he stayed on the plus side of the ledger at 5on5. The people who argue that he is nearly as good as Pronger could make a helluva case if they really wanted too.

6/27/2006 4:08 pm  
Anonymous momentai said...

I don't think we can pry Bergeron out of Boston. Though, I would love it if we could.

What is up with Michalek in Phoenix? If he played crazy minutes in the desert and ended up with a +4 overall plus/minus... Though, when you think about it... who else would Gretz give the tough minutes to?

The other dmen are Mara/Ballard/Morris/Seidenberg/Rivers. How many options does Gretz really have down there anyway?

6/27/2006 6:51 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Mara and Ballard played tough minutes too. Granted the latter got his butt kicked pretty good with an EV+/- of -17. The coach decides who gets the icetime, and against whom, the player just plays it.

Mara is a guy who just doesn't look the part, but somehow he just keeps putting up pretty good numbers against fairly tough opposition at 5on5. Only a -4 on a bad squad last season.

Doan played brutally tough minutes last year. And coped pretty well ... I have no explanation for that, but he's turned the corner. I always thought of him as a one dimensional player, but he looked like damn good playing both ways in the Olympics. Comrie is another strange one, ever since his benching around Halloween the dude is churniong out Pisani type results against a similar level of competition, more of a lower event guy who outscores at 5on5 since then. (granted Pisani played with a bad back for a stretch in mid-season). Still, helluva surprise to me. I don't know if anyone could have seen that coming. And leopards don't change their spots, I'd bet he's back to his old ways sooner or later.

6/27/2006 7:42 pm  
Blogger Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

Comrie may have gotten the ultimatum from Gretzky - as in - hey kid this is your third team now already and you'll be out of the league pretty damn soon if you don't get it together.

May have woken him up.

Interesting about Mark Bell - if Chicago are in the running he would interest me - he's another guy who was highly touted and seems to have finally turned the corner

6/28/2006 8:30 am  
Anonymous Doogie2K said...

People are lazy. That is how shit like that propogates.

Also, wasn't MacInnis the one that really trained Pronger?

6/28/2006 2:51 pm  
Blogger RiversQ said...

Great stuff here Vic. Bergeron was one of my favourite options and Boston has a few other chips to toss in as well. Whether or not he's even available is a whole other issue though.

I noticed Mark Bell's season. Calder had great rate numbers as well, especially at ES. I wonder if they played together and if so, which one was driving the ship? Both of them have pretty underwhelming PP numbers, but they've both put up decent ES rates every single year. Calder's been closer to an elite level, but they're both above average as ES players.

6/29/2006 12:06 pm  

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