Friday, June 23, 2006

Potential Pronger destinations

Just thought I'd throw this up there, see if we can think of any deals that might/might not make some sense while waiting for the seemingly inevitable trade that will, no doubt, not live up to our expectations.

PS. I hate that VAN got Luongo.

Anyways, potential Pronger destinations:

PHI - Richards, Carter, Gagne, Pitkanen, Niitymaki. We have heard that Lowe likes Downey as well. Picks might well be a part of any deal, PHI's arent particularly high. Ryan Potulny may also be a decent prospect.

BUF - they have a million RFA's and some pretty good ones. They also probably have cap room, depending on which ones they move.

CHI - Barker, Seabrook, Ruutu, Bell, Calder, 3 and 33 OV, Bertram, Skille

LA - Frolov (on a 3 mil per year 5 year deal, pretty attractive), Dustin Brown, Visnovsky, Cammelari, Garon, Conroy?, Brian Boyle, Kopitar, Tukonen (LT loves the Finns)

BOS - Boyes, 5 OV, Toivonen, Bergeron, Sturm, I'll include Raycroft, but reluctantly. I'll also include Yan Stastny, for the comedy of him being traded between the 2 teams again. Would definitely be another #1 D for BOS, and there's a history between the GM's. Also, Mark Stuart and Boynton and Brad Stuart, though the Oilers would probably need the latter signed to an extension first.

STL - 1OV. And what else? I think they don't have what the Oilers need

PIT - hehe, these guys do. I'm assuming Malkin and Crosby are off teh table, but maybe Malkin isn't if the deal gets big enough and PIT wants to win starting next year. Even without Crosby and Malkin though PIT has some nice young, cheap pieces that EDM could use and save money to spend on UFA's. IE. 2nd OV, Fleury (probably not particularly avail), Whitney, Orpik, Christensen, WElch. Well, maybe there isn't all that much there. If it takes Pronger and Hemsky to get Malkin involved, what else do you need to get it done?

PHX - always include them in any trade possibilities.

FLA - Bouwmeester, countless forwards.

Well, that's top of my head. Anyone see any better fits, for both teams, that I'm missing?


EDIT #1:

Spector's lists NYR, OTT, FLA, BOS, ATL, and CHI as the 6 teams that have already contacted the Oilers. Well, I mentioned only 3 of those teams, so I might as well comment on the other 3:

NYR - a bunch of interesting pieces. Marc Staal, Prucha, Lundquist, Montoya, Korpikoski, Tyutin. They have some other pretty decent prospects as well, not sure what NHL ready players they have avail as well.

ATL - I think Hossa would be the likely guy here, but would he be too pricey for EDM? What else would EDM want? They do have Coburn as well, one of the vaunted top 3 D from the 2003 draft as well (others being Suter and Phaneuf).

OTT - would be funny if they got Meszaros this way, is all I'm saying. But they have a bunch of other interesting pieces, obviously Spezza and Havlat come to mind quickly , guys like Vermette, Eaves, and Kaigarodov as well perhaps?

FLA note - I forgot to specifically mention how much I was a fan of Olesz back at the draft, really liked this player from what I heard, back at the draft. Saw nothing of him except highlights when he scored last year though.


Blogger RiversQ said...

You know what, this is a potentially huge positive especially if the Oilers can get a real impact forward or goaltender, the two positions that really drive results. The Oilers' money is really much better spent there than on a dman, even one as good as Chris Pronger.

They're probably also better off sharing the wealth around the team and improving the depth.

I'm such a freaking positive guy. I won't lie though. It feels like a betrayal and Pronger really hurt his value by making a public demand.

6/23/2006 10:44 pm  
Blogger RiversQ said...

I forgot to mention my preferred return.

mc79 took a swing at Brad Richards but I still like the player.

Patrice Bergeron seems like a potential outscorer, but seems pretty far away from being there to my liking.

Gagne and Richards/Carter from Philly would be pretty much ideal. One piece for now who is an impact ES forward and a piece for later that will probably become another impact ES forward.

6/23/2006 10:47 pm  
Anonymous lowetide said...

I like the Florida roster and Keenan has traded some of the finest players of the last 20 years BEFORE they were close to their peak.

6/23/2006 11:08 pm  
Blogger speeds said...

I'm a huge Olesz fan, had him 3rd in 2004, but even outside him FLA has a lot to like. How much cap/budget room do they have though?

Pronger/Bertuzzi/Jokinen takes up ~17 mil. Yet we know Keenen loved(s?) Pronger.

6/23/2006 11:17 pm  
Blogger Chris said...

From Boston I'd do Bergeron, Stuart and Raycroft. If they don't want to part with Stuart perhaps think about the fifth pick overall, the top players are pretty good this year.

From Ottawa, Mezzaros and one of Spezza and Havlat would be dandy.

From Atlanta, Hossa and some array of picks and prospects.

I feel rather bitter and betrayed as a fan of this team right now. A few days ago, I was thinking Pronger should be the captain and a #44 jersey would look pretty nice in my closet. Now I hope he gets hit by a bus.

6/23/2006 11:41 pm  
Anonymous YKOil said...

The Bertuzzi trade is unbelievable. Keenan shows once again that he is an idot when it comes to players he figures play 'his' brand of hockey.

Luongo AND Krajicek for Bertuzzi, Allen and Auld is an amazing deal for Nonis.


As for Pronger... hard to say. My criteria is such - HIGH, HIGH upside prospects or established stars with upside.

ST. LOUIS does have the #1, Brewer Backman and TJ Oshie. Can't see it though as St. Louis just has too far to go.

Can't see Pronger moving to PHOENIX or LA due to the travel from there (can't do it in edmonton he can't do it in Phoenix or LA).

PHILLY won't happen because they don't have the d-man to send back and we aren't getting one of Richards or Carter AND Pitkanen. I don't want Gagne either as I think Forsberg boosted his stats to the sky. If Johnsson was healthy and signed long-term however it would have been a different story (i.e. Johnsson, Richards, Meyer & pick type of deal).

BOSTON is interesting AND dangerous. Boynton and Raycroft might be tempting targets in a package but for me... well not for Pronger. Boynton is never happy with his contract and he is coming off an injury while Raycroft really struggled. Since we won't get Bergeron my criteria dictate that any deal with Boston is an absolute steal for us.

CHICAGO is a definite maybe in my mind. Seabrook is a winner, the #3 overall rocks (Toews or Staal) and I like what Skille and Bolland bring to the table. If Aucoin wasn't coming off injury it would make things interesting. A trade of the #3, Seabrook and Bolland would be almost impossible to resist. Have to wonder if Chicago still has too much travel though.

BUFFALO has Tallinder and Lydman and not a lot else I want oddly enough. May have to look at their prospect list again.

PITTSBURGH is wowee kind of interesting. Even with Malkin, Crosby and MAF off the table they have the #2, Whitney and Welch. That kind of deal might work for me but given the budget of Pittsburgh I can see where Gonchar would have to be moved and that just doesn't fly. To respond to your thought of Hemsky and Pronger... well.. for Malkin, Whitney & ? is all I can say. Pronger and MAP for Malkin however... would Shero bite?

FLORIDA is a big question mark for me. Bouwmeester would be a must. I am not sold on Horton's ability to escape injury. The #10 isn't a great pick, Olesz has injury issues too and I am NOT sold on Weiss. After Bouwmeester and Horton Florida is a dog's breakfast of good but questionable prospects.

OTTAWA, with Phillips around, is also an option. I prefer Meszaros however. Not much after that (available is the operative word) though I think.

Finally, a team that cannot be underestimated here is the New York RANGERS. A package of Mark Staal, Tyutin, Korpikoski and the #21 pick is pretty tempting (I have been stumping for Tyutin a looong time).

DREAM SCENARIO... trade Pronger for a great package of young players (Chicago, Rangers, Pittsburgh and Florida in that order) and then sign REDDEN to a deal.

6/23/2006 11:44 pm  
Anonymous oilswell said...

riversq: get out of my brain, your first post was a mindreader, although I don't feel betrayed much — more concerned it didn't work for Pronger, for whatever reason, and wonder about the reason.

First thing I thought of when I read Luongo went to Vancouver? Lundqvist. Honest. I can't see how the money would work out for that though.

One would suspect that Pronger's a reasonably hot commodity, and his contract looks pretty fine to me. But in comparison to just signing Chara or Redden, trading even-up for Pronger is a sideways move, unless you happen to love Pronger that much more than those others.

Assuming he's traded, I will definitely miss him, he's an incredible player.

6/23/2006 11:46 pm  
Blogger Chris said...

I think it suffices to say that Kevin Lowe should be bringing out the boys from Lloyd in the ownership group to mount the "Come Home Wade" campaign. If not, suddenly we could afford to say "Hello Mr.Elias how would you like seven million dollars?" I'm thinking Elias and Hemsky would be a dynamite powerplay just by themselves.

6/24/2006 12:04 am  
Anonymous momentai said...

Question for you guys... I wonder if you would know this offhand. If we were to garner a deal with Pittsburgh, we know that they have a definite self-imposed budget issue. What is the status of Palffy's retirement? If he decides to "unretire" for next season, is his contract still active? Assuming that the Penguins can't afford to take on salary, they would need ship out some players to even things up. Would the rights to Palffy work out? Just wondering...

6/24/2006 12:05 am  
Blogger RiversQ said...

Ha, same page again, oilswell? It's a good thing I've got the quicker trigger finger, eh? I see your position on this situation as well. Surely this isn't what he envisioned. I'm also pretty certain he's the best dman on the planet, which is sad for us.

Lowe can't really do it, but it would be nice to decouple Pronger from his salary here:

1. Use his dough to sign Elias.

2. Trade Pronger for cheap assets.

That would be ideal for me I think. Elias is a tremendous player.

This was inspired by talk on the messageboards that the Oilers should sign Redden or Chara. A mistake I think - they'll never have the same impact that Pronger can and they're limited by their position. Pronger's cash needs to be spent on a big-time forward. I can't emphasize it enough. Mostly because it's doubtful they can get a goaltender worth the price with Luongo off the board.

6/24/2006 12:06 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

riversq: yeah, so you're faster. I'll send you my password and you can start posting for me while I take a beer break.

I see where you're getting on the Elias line of reasoning. Looking at Vic's deconstruction of Selanne's impact on Anaheim, it's a pretty compelling angle. The thing that concerns me about a potential Pronger trade is that he's the one trade you can point to forever that the Oilers got the best player in the deal. I was enjoying a fairly veteran D corps and a team not built just for tomorrow. I share some of LT's concern about a restarting the process of building a team for "later" rather than "soon".

Are there any movable impact forwards with approximately Pronger's salary?

6/24/2006 12:24 am  
Anonymous oilswell/riversq said...

Er, I was anonymous above there.

6/24/2006 12:24 am  
Blogger Chris said...

Maybe we can do a deal with Minnesota and trade disgruntled Franchise Players. Gaborik and picks for Pronger.

6/24/2006 12:31 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Count me in as one of the guys that sees this as a positive. My first reaction was "dickhead!", followed immediately by "Lowe has fallen backwards into a great situation here".

Pronger is a helluva defenseman no doubt, and this playoff drive is probably the best that he ever has played over a 24 game stretch (or ever will again), but a high end forward just makes so much more difference to team's success.

The Oilers will need a Dman who is good on the powerplay, because MacTavish is staying as coach, and he won't run four forwards out there ad nauseum like Ruff, Laviolette, Hartley, etc. But Tarnstrom has done better on the PP over his career than Pronger anyways (I think, riversq will correct me if I'm wrong) and the main UFA D prize, Wade Redden, is very nearly his equal as a PP guy, and also logs brutal minutes at evens.

Lowe's first choices on the UFA front last summer were Forsberg and Demitra, he apparently was courting them long before a CBA was finalized. He also pursued Niedermayer. Seems like he knows what kind of player he wants. Put it this way, if the Oilers had acquired Forsberg or Demitra instead of Pronger ... do you think that they would have finished higher or lower in the standings?

I'll add my wishlist to the fray as well :-)

* Gaborik.

* Tkachuk and the 1st overall pick.

* Frolov (VERY few players play such tough minutes as youngsters, Staal as an 18 year old is the only one I can think of.) Dynamite player on a good contract, years ahead of where he should be in his development, and unhappy in L.A. last season.

* N.B. - NO packages of several "pretty good" youngsters.


Just a great day to be an Oiler fan!

6/24/2006 9:25 am  
Blogger Asiaoil said...

I agree Vic - this is an opportunity - as long as we get a top line UFA forward like Elias as well. Then we can use the Pronger-Peca-Sammy dollars to build a fantastically deep team - and trade Pronger for the hard to get positions. Malkin is the guy I'm chasing hot and heavy now that he's signed and Pittsburg as a destination for Pronger seems appropriate. Horton and JayBo in FLA are also appealing.

We are essentially setting the clock back to last year this time - but instead of trying to deal Brewer and acouple of dubious prospects - we are trading the best dman in the game after a stunning cup run. We will do very well on this if Lowe does his job.

6/24/2006 2:10 pm  
Blogger mudcrutch79 said...

Now I hope he gets hit by a bus.

AFTER he gets traded please.

I echo oilswell's sentiment about wondering why exactly it didn't work out. I think that this can officially be termed the most disappointing week in Oilers history though. I could understand if his wife had a hard time with the place, FWIW. For those who didn't grow up in the North (and even some who did) the winters tend to be shockingly long and brutal, in particular the lack of sun. Given that I think she's from Missouri, that might have proven to be more difficult than she expected. Sucks for us because he's so much fun to have on your team but it's hard to get really angry at a guy who puts the happiness of his family first.

As for everything else, the dream scenario is to turn into high end prospects (ie. significantly fucking better than Lynch, Woywitka and Brew) and then spend the money on a high end forward, I guess. Elias sounds good to me but I doubt we'd get him.

Tough day.

6/24/2006 2:20 pm  
Blogger hffpff said...

Count me in as another who feels optimistically excited about this turn of event. Label it as "our hands being forced" or whatever it might be, but right now Lowe has carte blanche (free from both the fans' and his players' criticism) to cash in on an expensive asset whose value might have just reached its peak (as Vic pointed out).

Personally, I'd rather see Pronger turned into several cheap, rising stars - the scarcest & most precious resources - instead of another big name who's already getting paid. This gives us the greatest flexibility going forward.

I think, realistically, CHI has the most to offer and they have a pretty dumb GM sitting at the helm. A package centered on Ruutu would be very appealing (throwing in Toews would be a nice thought as well ;). IIRC, Ruutu is the guy whom Lowe really wanted in the 2001 draft and would have taken him ahead of Hemsky. Don't know too much about their cap situation though. But with the cap rising, it might not be too hard to make room.

Malkin would be a dream but he & Crosby (possibly with MAF as well) are synchronzied to enter their prime as a dominant core group. Shero would be nuts to disrupt this up cycle that is probably a once-in-a-career phenomenon experienced by a GM.

However this turns out, it has certainly been non-stop hockey fun since last summer. Seems like the hockey gods just love to stir up shit in our neck of the woods :)

6/24/2006 5:18 pm  
Blogger Chris said...

Ruutu is having injury problems and is contemplating retirement. Thus that deal just isn't going to happen.

Furthermore, I don't think Pittsburg is going to budge as they're sitting on a pile of promissing prospects. They really don't have the pieces to achieve anything now, so they might as well wait.

6/24/2006 7:17 pm  
Blogger Dennis said...

Good points MC. It still doesn't make me feel a whole lot better though. I've always been one of the guys who doubted that any big UFA would want to sign here and live in Edm.

This latest developement isn't exactly doing anything to change my mind.

6/24/2006 7:27 pm  
Blogger Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

If its the wife and she has issues with the Canadian winter Ottawa might be out but that to me is an ideal fit in terms of what the Sens need (playoff experience) and may need (high end D) depending on how the UFAs go.

How about Phillips, Fisher and Vermette? The Oil throw in Stoll or a vet ir two - I'm talking out of my ass here a little but the Sens lack that playoff knowhow and they are loaded with youth and skill.

Redden appeals to me but after Carolina and Tampa I have to think the old 6 man anonymous but solid (and cost effective) is fine.

Elias would be sweet but he's going to be damn hot as a commodity. They might have to make two trades, using the assets from the Pronger trade.

Overall I think it sucks but the Oilers aren't going to fall off the face of the earth. They'll do alright.

6/24/2006 7:56 pm  
Anonymous pdo said...

BDHS - I sure as hell hope we wouldn't have to throw in Stoll to pick up Fisher, Phillips and Vermette.

I know it's Eklund.. but he's talking Havlat/Phillips/1st '07.

That's the type of return I expect for Pronger, and something that I could live with.

6/24/2006 8:58 pm  
Blogger Chris said...

Why would we take Fisher, Phillips and Vermette? I mean seriously we're going to take Ottawa's 4th defenseman and its third line players...for Pronger?

That would be an absolutely horrible trade. I can at least see the possible upside in Boumeister and Horton, or Barker and Bell. Buy COME ON there is no way Lowe would ever trade Pronger for third liners.

6/25/2006 3:29 am  
Anonymous Big T said...


A trade involving Phillips coming to EDM would definatley be a positive if Lowe was truing to sign Redden. Philips is his closest friend on the team by far. The two practically grew up together in Ottawa.

That said, Ottawa most certianly knows this and would most likely only trade Philips if they were going to make a push for Chara and were resigned to the fact that they were going to lose Redden.


6/25/2006 9:48 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now that Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the middle would they be interested in a 3 team deal involving St.Louis and their top pick plus something for Pronger for maybe Malkin???

To PIT: Erik Johnson + pucks

To STL: Pronger

To EDM: Malkin

St. Louis is in rebuild mode so who knows if they's even want to make such a deal, but I believe they will need to take on some additional salary to hit the Salary Cap Floor will they not???

6/25/2006 10:13 am  
Blogger Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

pdo - you're probably right on Stoll but sweeten the pot with him and maybe you get some prospects as well, of which Ottawa has a pile. Fisher would be taking his spot.

I'd take Vermette and Fisher over Havlat, sorry. Havlat is going to be a UFA next season. You know he won't resign. So you'd be left with Philips and a low pick.

Fisher was Ottawa's second line center - 22 goals and +23 in 68 games. Vermette is just a kid - 21 goals in his first full season. Phillips would become the Oilers' best Dman right away. He's #3 on the Sens and look at the guys ahead of him on the chart. Its just a starting point, anyhow. Who else would they get from Ottawa? Probably moot - if Lauren hates Edmonton why would she love Ottawa?

And Chris - Mark Bell? I have followed Chicago for years. Barker and Bell would be an unproven Dman (albeit one with great potential) and another guy who is a second or third liner, imo. I think Chicago is a good possibility but they better get Seabrook, Bell and Toews.

Horton and Bouwmeester is reasonable.

6/25/2006 11:31 am  
Blogger Chris said...

I'd rather get some players with great potential than take Vermette, Fisher and Phillips who we KNOW are already going to never be anything more than average.

6/25/2006 1:46 pm  
Anonymous jon said...

In all honesty, I don't think we'll be very lucky to get something for Pronger that the fans are happy with. My money is on a trade with NY for the old boys connection. I would hope beyond hopes that we send Pronger and a younger forward for Staal and Montoya. It would depend though I suppose on whether Montoya is ready for platoon duty. I like to think he is, but really don't have a lot of evidence to support that theory.

6/25/2006 2:49 pm  
Anonymous namflashback said...

I was mad, angry, and annoyed throughout Friday and Saturday.

A couple of things regarding the Prongers' decision -- I speculate that marital and family problems were occurring before they were traded to Edmonton. They probably thought that a new situation in Edmonton would help. They probably think that now, a new situation elsewhere would help too. There are kids involved, and those kids deserve a chance to have mom and dad together (more likely than not, the problems chase him everywhere).

Guessing that Chris P knew this was going to happen, and to his credit -- at least he played his guts out for a team and organization he knew he was not long for. This won't translate into more $$ for him.

For timing of the trade, I think either early/soon or late/very late benefits the Oilers.

Early/soon allows Lowe to unencumber budget and pursue UFAs.

Late allows Lowe to target players on contracts.

Very late allows Lowe to target teams who have disappointing starts to the season.

6/26/2006 10:11 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Yeah flashback, I think there will be a bidding war shortly after July 1st, and if Lowe doesn't get an offer he likes then it will probably wait until late summer.

There will be a lot of teams hard pressed to meet the $28M floor this season. And a lot of bad teams that will have trouble attracting big name UFAs. The only way for them to add a star will be to trade for one (like the Minny trade for Demitra ... Sullivan and a 17th overall pick is probably a very fair price for a guy of Demitra's ability. But from the other point of view, it's quite a bit to pay for a guy they could theoretically have signed as a UFA the year previous. Only problem is that there is no way in hell that Demitra would have signed with the Wild unless there was a gross overpay on salary.)

6/26/2006 3:32 pm  
Anonymous pete said...

Seems to me a trade with Ottawa (Havlat and Meszaros or Phillips?) makes the most sense in addressing both teams' needs.

But how does going to Ottawa help Lauren Pronger?

6/26/2006 8:46 pm  
Blogger Black Dog Hates Skunks said...

pete - I was one who thought Ottawa was a likely destination but that's a no-go I'd think

Also, Havlat and Phillips are both UFAs next summer so no thanks even if Lauren loves beaver claws

6/27/2006 7:11 am  
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7/10/2006 7:32 pm  

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