Saturday, April 14, 2007

A Head-to-Head Minutes Website

I've been meaning to do this for a while, and Showerhead's post below inspired me to make the effort.

This site should enable anyone who is interested to check on the head to head icetime, at 5v5, for any completed game in the NHL this season, including playoffs. It's a first draft, and isn't flashy, but hopefully it serves the purpose. And hopefully it furthers the cause here: informed hockey discussion.

All this information is stripped from the time-on-ice sheets. If those sheets show 5 or more skaters on the ice at any given time in the game, for both teams, then that is considered a 5v5 moment. Obviously a lot more can be done, and though I'm not sure when I'll get back to it, I would appreciate feedback/suggestions . Just leave a note in the comments section here.


Blogger Earl Sleek said...

Awesomeness, seriously.

If you're looking for suggestions, though, maybe you could group some matchups, like all matchups ANA vs. MIN, for example (probably split by home and road).

Or any team vs. any opponent, that sort of thing.

But by all means, take as much time as you want. I've got plenty to mess around with here.

4/14/2007 4:39 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Earl said:
If you're looking for suggestions, though, maybe you could group some matchups, like all matchups ANA vs. MIN, for example (probably split by home and road).

Nice idea Earl, but for it to be useful you'd have to know how many games that each guy played against the other team's players too.
I'd probably have to dump all this stuff for a season into a database, and set up a cron to scan for new TOI sheets.

Sounds like a lot of work. Maybe on a rainy day in the summer I'll take a kick at it. :)

4/15/2007 10:06 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Seems as good a place to post this any any:

This afternoon Lidstrom played 87% of his 5v5 icetime against Iginla. Zetterberg, still "finding his timing" apparently, played 91% of his 5v5 icetime against Iginla. That's just crazy good matching by Babcock.

You could make a strong case for these two Wings being the best players in the Western Conference I think.

4/15/2007 9:30 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

buf/nyi funfacts:

I have been watching this series and the OTT/PIT series. Both very good hockey, especially the latter. Anyhow, a Smyth and Bergeron update:

Bergeron has played the most 5v5 minutes of any Islander in both game 1 and game 2. He has also played more against Briere at 5v5 than any other Islander in both of the games.

Smyth has been hurt for a while, definitely a step slower at the minute. That hasn't stopped the opposing teams from building the gameplan around him though. Sabres are no different. Every time Smyth comes on the ice so do Tallinder and Lydman, whoever runs the D for Ruff is doing a helluva job at this. And either Drury or Briere for the forward line matches.

Both Smyth and Bergeron have played very well IMO. Both are EV+1 so far and Bergeron has a PP goal. Buffalo is just too deep though, DiPietro is going to have to be great, and they'll need more than their share of the bounces to take this series methinks. Yashin and Satan have been poor so far IMO, the Isles need them to step it up in order to have a chance.

4/15/2007 9:47 pm  
Blogger MetroGnome said...

Wow, much appreciated. Thanks.

4/16/2007 10:26 am  
Blogger RiversQ said...

The Tampa/NJD line matching is really interesting too.

Madden's matched vs. Lecavalier for 79% of Vinny's icetime. I would say Tortorella is fine with that matchup because that's pretty damn high. The results say he's right too because Lecavalier is +3 at ES against that line so far.(BTW, surely Playfair wants the Iggy vs. Zetterberg deal as well - that's the only way that match is so damn high. Obviously he doesn't get the results. ;) )

Meanwhile, Richards is basically splitting time between the Elias line and the Parise line. I would call Richards vs. Elias a power vs. power matchup. From the shift charts it looks to me like Lou is trying to dodge Richards by sending out the Elias line right after a TB PP.

NJD appears to be going with White and Rafalski vs. Vinny's line as a hard match as well. The numbers say White's a much harder match, but I think that's because White kills penalties and gets the ES spillover.

Although it seems TB has lagged since the cup due to having all their eggs in three baskets, it's hard to argue with the kind of reassurance they get from having Lecavalier and Richards out there so much. They've taken 76% of the ES icetime in that series so far. The other two lines have had to worry about a total of just 21.5 min in two games.

4/16/2007 1:48 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

Interesting stuff Riversq. I'm not sure what Lou is up to.

The last game against the Isles he was running Elias' line against Smyth's line. And Madden against Yashin/Kozlov/Satan.

If I was Tortorella the matchup I really wouldn't want is Elias vs Vinny. That Tbay line creates a bunch but surrenders a bunch as well ... best if it doesn't happen against guys with the skill of Langenbrunner/Gomez/Elias methinks.

I would think that Tortorella will run Richards and Sarich hard at the Elias line tonight. Roll Vinny/St. Louis out the shift after and let Lou match up with Madden's line, as he seems wont to do.

To my mind Torts is the smartest guy at this card table. But Lou has better cards. Should be interesting anyways.

Then again, Tampa's goaltending is so bad I can't imagine them having a good playoff anyways.

4/16/2007 2:52 pm  
Blogger Slipper said...

I feel bad for Tortorella. Whenever he takes Vinny and Marty off the ice, Zach fucking Parise scores a goal. Barring a miracle, Lou's going to come out from this series looking good , and then like last year, he'll face a team that will force him to match-up more than one line and he'll be fucked.

Atleast that's what I predict.

I also see the rangers and Thrashers as a good match-up for one another, but seriously, the winner of that series should get smoked in the next round.

4/16/2007 3:25 pm  
Blogger RiversQ said...

Vic Ferrari said...
And Madden against Yashin/Kozlov/Satan.

If that isn't a fucking Selke trophy waiting to happen, I don't what is.

I was a little surprised to see the NJ stuff as well. It seems a waste to gameplan around Madden vs. Lecavalier and then have Elias taking no particular matchup. Perhaps Gionta holds that line back a little bit? I don't really know about Gomez either.

4/16/2007 3:32 pm  
Blogger RiversQ said...

Slipper said...
I also see the rangers and Thrashers as a good match-up for one another, but seriously, the winner of that series should get smoked in the next round.

Totally agree there. I attended G1 and I'm shocked at how thin these teams are. Just fucking sad stuff on the 3rd D pairings and bottom sixes for these teams. Especially the Rangers.

Avery really is a heck of a player. He's a major reason the Rangers even have two lines they can lean on. Holik's line has been the strong one for Atlanta thus far. Hartley recognized that after G1 and promptly went to a hard match against Jagr-Nylander.

How about that matchup at centre ice? Holik against that fucking poof Nylander? He must have been wetting his pants. Holik butchered him in the circle in G2 as well. Who goes 1 for 18 in any game? Frank Robinson would've cried about leaving him in there.

BTW, Sutton was a turnstile in G1. Made a couple of nice recoveries with that long stick of his, but if you're consistently making poke checks from behind as wingers take you wide you're going the way of the Dodo bird. Combine that with his penchant for going out of his way for the hit and his less than accurate first pass and I hope he's a midrange UFA the Oilers pass on. Fortunately, they have the eye for dman talent and probably have a good idea about Sutton.

4/16/2007 3:49 pm  
Blogger RiversQ said...

One other thing I wanted to look at in Round 1 - the NSH/SJ series. That's a repeat engagement and I looked at that series pretty closely last year.

My conclusions from last year were that Eaton and Markov were the tough minutes pairing and Timonen/Zidlicky were second most important. Of course my rationale for checking was that some posters over at HF were suggesting that Hamhuis was some kind of wunderkind. Sure enough he was sheltered like crazy except for the first game in SJ, where Wilson got the Thornton/Hamhuis matchup and the kid was schooled.

Anyway, fast forward to this year and the matchups are interesting again. Trotz hard matches Timonen/Weber against Thornton's line while using Zidlicky/Suter against Marleau's line. Hamhuis plays third pairing minutes and gets to play with Forsberg in front of him quite a bit.

That means Forsberg spent little time at home against Thornton OR Marleau. That's interesting. Thornton draws the Dumont/Arnott line and Marleau gets the Kariya/Legwand line. Funny stuff. I would have thought they'd go with Legwand against power but I didn't expect Trotz to use Arnott against strong opposition.

The G2 matchups are a little weaker, but follow the same trend except for maybe Hamhuis picking up more time against Marleau. Then all of a sudden the lines almost roll in G3 in SJ. 50% matches at best.

It's funny that the pattern is almost exactly the same as I remember last year. Hard matchups in G1, a little looser in G2 in NSH, and then they're almost gone in G3 in SJ - same as last year. If Trotz is true to form, he'll try to tighten things up in G4. Wilson will be ready and he'll probably get what he wants.

I've always thought that Trotz was pretty sharp, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

4/16/2007 11:21 pm  
Blogger PDO said...

My favourite match up from the first round is still the two "best defensive players evar" in Yelle and Draper...

Having played each other about 50% of the time in G2.

4/16/2007 11:43 pm  
Blogger Devin said...

Rivers - it's interesting what you say about Nylander. I'm of the mind that he's under-appreciated (playing with Jagr) despite his terrible faceoff performance. His pt totals are in around the Sedins, Tanguay, etc, which regardless of the opposition faced is solid for a + guy with a cap hit of 2MM. His PPP/60 is a respectable 5.15, and NYR was a junk PP most of the season. From watching NYR the past couple seasons closely, he draws a sick amount of penalties too (behindthenet can verify) -- when he and Jagr (and their awesome LW diet-Hossa and/or Isbister!) sneak out against a 4th line it's an inevitable circus-show game of keepaway.

He hasn't given up a GA yet in this series, either - 3pts at EV, so for all the faceoff wins and grumpy stares Holik is dishing out... well.. so what?

4/17/2007 7:41 am  
Blogger Steven said...

Wow great stuff Vic. If I wasn't so lazy I might be able to do some of this stuff too but I just enjoy watching the games and reading the analysis you guys provide. :)

Just from my eye yesterday it looks like those Ex-Oilers are playing a pivotal role against Buffalo and doing pretty well. That Poti-Bergeron pairing would have been my worst nightmare in Edmonton but damn they seem to be doing ok.

I can't make any sense of the Nash-SJ series matchups at all quite frankly. I think its Trotz because I know the way Wilson runs his bench but I'll have to keep on eye on this series. It really has been some great hockey though, tons of odd-man rushes and up & down hockey. In comparison to Dallas-Vancouver this has been really exciting to watch, but probably a coaches nightmare.

4/17/2007 8:37 am  
Blogger Black Dog said...

Hey Vic - does something have to be disabled in Internet Explorer to make this work? Everytime I type in the game # it looks like its about to do something and then it just comes back to the screen again without any results. Unless I'm following the instructions to get the game # wrong? Do you have a number I can try?

There's always one dummy in every crowd! :)

4/17/2007 9:00 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...

black dog:

I dunno. All I can think is that it may be because javascript is disabled on your browser. I used a public domain jvascript file for the table sorting routine.

Let me know if it still doesn't work after that. Hopefully someone who knows more about these things can contribute a suggestion.

4/17/2007 9:43 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


I haven't watched much at all of the S.J/NSH series, but Wilson is big into shift lengths. He likes to try and run a short shift, get it in deep and change before the other team can get off the ice. Fresh legs vs tired legs sort of thing. Just a guess, but in the case of an opponent like Nashville, where three lines are equally good ... probably not a bad idea.

btw: The only complete Oilers game I saw in hte past couple of months was the last home game vs Nashville. And before the score got out of hand Trotz was leaving Legwand and Kariya on the ice to take D zone draws, then coming straight to the bench once the puck got going the right way. Paul F. Kariya, I kid you not.

Trotz has been putting the responsibility in the hands of the guys who earn the big coin, and making them accountable in the press as well. And it seems to have worked.

I remember Dennis saying that Trotz was running Arnott hard at Thornton early in the year, maybe Oct or Nov. And Desjardins shows him playing tough minutes ... so maybe it's just as it seems, I dunno.

Both those teams have really dodgy defense though, IMO.

4/17/2007 9:52 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


Ya, Nylander has a well deserved reputation as a soft player. I was still a Flames fan when he played there, and mad skill but damn, it was almost embarrassing to watch him take the easy path every damn time.

Then I caught a NYI/NYR game, just after the Smyth trade, and I couldn't believe it was the same guy. It was one of the most physical regular season games I've ever seen, and Nylander was right in there, crashing into the tough places to play. Taking shots and giving them back. Seriously.

They cut to him at the bench, he had blood on his face, looked right into the game. Go figure, maybe it's one of those things where you put a letter on a guy's chest and his balls drop, I dunno.

4/17/2007 9:57 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


Just to add on Arnott: I stumbled across some old Larry Robinson interview transcripts on the net, and he was talking about matchups in the playoffs. The year that N.J faced DAL in the playoffs he talked about handling Modano (2000 or 2001) ... he ran Sykora-Arnott-Elias at Modano's line at home, and Hitchcock was cool with that so he got that in DAL too. And he ran Niedermayer-Rafalski at Modo as well.

4/17/2007 10:02 am  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


On the Yelle vs Draper thing: Back in the days of the heated COL-DET rivalry I suspect that they played a bunch against each other as well.

Bowman and Hartley both seemed cool with Forsberg-vs-Fedorov and Sakic-vs-Yzerman matchups.

Hopefully the NHL gets around to posting the TOI sheets or shift charts for those old series some day. We could contrast the assessments of Canadian writers vs their American counterparts ;) ... I'm sure we'd find that the latter had the far better analysis, and the former were lost in hockey lore and ethereal assessments. Still that way IMO. A shame.

4/17/2007 10:08 am  
Blogger Slipper said...

Dreger was talking about hard match-ups last night on TSN, with regards to the TB-NJ game in particular. He didn't think having Madden take the lion's share of minutes wass effective bench work.

Lately I seem to hear more and more players discuss playing against the other team's best players and the drastic difference there.

Martin Biron is an interesting guy and it's unfortunate he's a goaltender because he'd be a top broadcaster IMO. Last night when Bob was talking about a goaltending duel between Brodeur and Holmqvist, Biron said he didn't agree with viewing it that way and suggested it's better to look at it as Brodeur vs. TB's top players and vice versa. He's also discussed vaguely the relationship between a goaltender's style and a team's style meshing, which in my mind is valid.

Either way, if you watch enough hockey talk you're going to get alot of bullshit, but there's also some substance out there to be had. I mean, Glen Healey should probably not talk at all. He even said that Wilson and Vokoun and the Predators are fine with allowing Rivet to take shots from the high point, despite Rivet's two goals, and then about ten minutes later a Rivet shot from that area was deflected in by Michalek.

I think there are guys in the know, but that approach won't sell anyways. The re-education process alone would drive viewers and readers away. I'm content with the situation as it is, having all these sites available with their wealth of knowledge, and satisfying my sweet tooth with the entertainment hockey media.

And Vic, I think that's bang on about Wilson's shift length stuff. I might have read on here that he was the guy analysing the shifts prior to the ones where goals are scored, ad someone tohught he was trying to quantify momentum. If he succeeded I think it would be defined by exactly what you're saying in that who is out there for the most time within a certain time frame and for the longest shift. Him and Tim Hunter (of all people!) have those portable video machine right on the bench, it's phenomenal what that crew is trying to do. I'm not sure how much you can filter out and get your players to digest within a game though.

4/17/2007 12:29 pm  
Blogger Steven said...

Black Dog:

Did you try the example in the help? 20578 ?

Make sure to hit the Go button as well as I think I hit enter a few times instead and that doesn't work. Otherwise yeah I'm guessing it would be some browser settings.

4/17/2007 1:26 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


Too much to respond to at once, but on guy analysing the shifts prior to the ones where goals were scored ... that was Roger Nielson, the "who was on the ice 1 and 2 minutes before a goal was scored" thing. Ron Wilson is cut from the same cloth though.

Last playoff season, during the intermission of the EDM/S.J series they interviewed Ron's boss, Sharks GM Doug Wilson. He was asked about the keys to the series and stated with "shift lengths" as the first or second item. That stuck with me because it was damn strange.

4/17/2007 1:48 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


Just to add, it was me who thought Nielson was trying to quantify momentum. Not in the vague sense though, in the sense of starting a shift with possession or the puck penned in deep for the last minute.

As you say, catching tired legs goes hand in hand with that, and is probably the bigger factor. You're swaying me in that regard.

The EV long-shift kings are usually hovering wingers I think. Bure is the poster boy of course. Watching some Rangers games lately, Jagr is just a terrific talent ... but it's all about Jaromir. If he's been hovering up high all shift while the puck has been bouncing around his end, he just stays out there for the next shift in an "I'm not tired yet!" kinda way. Renney has no interest in playing him against quality forwards.

Guys that play too much time in their own end of the rink end up with long shifts as well. A shame that the NHL do not break the shift lengths down by EV PP and SH. Though Gabe Desjardins should be able to give you the stuff to figure that out easily enough.

4/17/2007 2:24 pm  
Blogger Black Dog said...

steven - that was it - I was pressing enter


4/17/2007 2:34 pm  
Blogger Vic Ferrari said...


How do I make it so that you can hit enter instead of clicking the "go" button? I'm using php there btw.

4/17/2007 3:17 pm  
Blogger Devin said...

Nylander really getting it done tonight ;)
tho admittedly not against Holik - so far Nylander +3 and good-Hossa -3!

4/17/2007 5:39 pm  
Blogger Steven said...

Vic - I don't exactly know. Its been a few years since I've used PHP but I think you may need to add a hidden value into the code to make sure that the form is being submitted with the number.

After some brief looking on the web, hopefully this might help:

You might have to play with it for a bit to find the exact solution. Yah PHP is pretty annoying with the forms and things sometimes but usually that has to do with IE. I remember I used to write lots of PHP things that worked fine in Firefox or Opera but was all over the place with Internet Explorer.

4/17/2007 7:51 pm  
Blogger PDO said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4/19/2007 7:30 pm  

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